Exactly. Thanks, Futurist Guy. YOU CANT PROVE A THING!!!!!. Why? I find it a it off putting that anyone would keep a list of *how many have you led to Christ. I, like so many others a tragic victim of corrupted Christianity. The strength and impact of Nancy Beachs and Vonda Dyers words remain, thankfully. Paul spoke up, and evidently appropriate action was taken, for which the Church at large benefitted. After all, women are not little children who have to run to daddy for every little bump up. The answer is quite simple. Like the real estate/mortgage broker years ago who the day before the search warrant came down, backed up an industrial shredder van to their office for an all-day shred-everything party. @ dee: Brad I am the Bride of Christ, the Church, as are Dee and Deb and many others who post here. This year in 2018, Bill has been publicly accused of sexual harassment and h e has resigned from the megachurch he and Lynne founded. By Thriftbooks.com User, June 15, 2004 This is the greatest study bible that I have seen. Do it on your personal, not work, email. He is the founder and CEO of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), one of the most powerful and influential organizations globally. I hope that you are correct that what was stated by Jodi Walle is not true. But telling someone immediately might be crucial in the future. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote: I chose to focus on the positive, job well done, not the negative. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. @ AbuseCrusher: More of my thoughts here: http://www.divorceminister.com/nancy-ortberg-shares-her-side-rebill-hybels-allegations/. Obviously very biblically ignorant site!! the narcissists seeking to traumatize people into submission outnumber those who act out irresistible urges. The elder board and staff who enabled him are equally bad. This is MBA stuff. And a pedestal they can fall from and did. Unfortunately, this particular scandal not only impacts specific Willow Creek pastors or employees it impacts the body of Christ and the thousands of people seeking to know Jesus. Maybe He is cleaning house. We were in both places for years and said little or nothing. @ Law Prof: So, what led to the divorce? Really? I am disappointed at the congregation who gave the standing ovations but they havent been told all the facts. I do not know the answer to this question but red flags are waving up, down and all around this situation. There will always be outrage when the celebrity idols are touched in any way. It is hard enough fighting rampant sex abuse in churches. Wow!!! Put it in context and think about such a convo. The woman alleging an affair with Bill said that she was suicidal, both to Leanne and to Bill. I doubt you get the same affect from creepy weirdo hugs. Perhaps God is looking for a different type of leadership in His Church. Just listening to Hybels extol the leadership virtues of Heather Lawson (another blonde) was enough to make me wonder, Is anyone else hearing and seeing this? His own wife (Lynne) is very different from the women Hybels mentored. And I never understood why Hybels did not step down when his wife (Lynne) had a HUGE crisis of faith. It can be such a power deal included in lots of other power moves by the evil ones well regarded in church. Mahaney books. I have heard sermons on the side hug. Time for some more sacred cows to get smashed. Ah, the broad-brush accusation of slamming the Church when actions of their leadership are called into question. Ortberg actually does have a chance to step up and be the bigger man here. His third publisher, Zondervan, has not yet responded to inquiries. So much! Little nobodies dont stand a chance. There are cuddle friends. @ JB: I think its more common than any of us think. My former abusive, cultish and abuser-friendly church was positively obsessed with unity. The pastor preached on it continually. Judging Others Its not the victim. How would I know. Who are we to say which it is when somebody lances a boil and the pus drains out; but to continue the analogy the boil existed before the surgeons knife got anywhere near it. And of course, the crisis management priority hangs over all of this. And sadly most victims spend YEARS time trying to answer the question why they were targeted. I believe that God is convicting WCCs leadership. Thanks Dee. Willow Creek / Bill Hybels had IT powered by the Ambien Operating System. The Devil is destroying yet another church. The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher. A brave woman called each person out, which led to subsequent allegations, Differences If someone thinks so, tell me how. Personally I was more offended by Wailing Wall-Satanic ritual connection. And conveniently you are dismissing the affair. I was contemplating a megachurch model the other day where teaching pastors had term limits or rotating speakers. I dont know why he does these things. Please do some reading on sex abuse and harassment. I would assume these claims are multi million. I dont have any memory of doing and saying those things to her that night!. Women get to decide if they want to be touched or not, and oh he did not mean anything by should never even have to be brought into play-in the workplace. Even the innocent in Israel lived with the ensuing upheaval. Shauna Niequist has apologised for failing to speak up after her father, Bill Hybels, was accused of sexual misconduct. The new letter to John Ortberg is a farce and anyone who has been a victim advocate is aware of it. I have often felt unconfident that the TWW team or people I have replied to in a comments thread at TWW have noticed my comments. Hybels is a BS artist and a skilled speaker but also friends with very unrighteous people. Nothing is 100% safe but these wrk pretty well. (1 Cor. And people are actually saying Hybels being a champion of women was under false pretenses, for Sex? Is that honest? I know, Ive been there. Still not handled. Anyone questioning the purpose of this blog should realize that when churches and relgious leaders put themselves out there accountabilty comes with that publicity. He describes how the skilled offender plans the way he will abuse the woman from day one. Nancy Ortberg remains affiliated as a board member and husband John Ortberg a prolific speaker, author and leader continues to return to be a guest speaker at Willow Creek for several years after they left Willow Creek? Just wonderin, Similarities Its what someone mentioned in another thread about 75% of people go along with whatever to be accepted. They are rarely anything alike. The difference is the internet makes it much harder to try to shame each of us in person individually.. Blogs such as WW are an encouragement to me. Hybels is spending his time complaining and murmuring against his accusers, rather than taking their contentions to heart, examining himself, repenting and coming clean. Theres been so much of this lately that I think (hope!) As for the hug thing, & why didnt Nancy Ortberg say somethingwell, for a year or two now, my Christian neighbour, who Ive been friends with him & his wife for about 25 years, has been giving me lingering hugs, which end up with his hands resting on my lower back as often as he can when he drops into my house, hes made a few inappropriate comments about my breasts (they are a standing joke amongst me & my friends as Im a buxom lass), often tries to rub my shoulders as he knows I have shoulder issues& youre the first people Ive told. Very often, as you point out, in times of crisis, people respond in ways that reveal. LOL. Rather, I think it is their twisted view of both God and humanity. No amount of marketing spin can change the fact that if these allegations are true, and they now appear quite credible, that you were following a fraudand quite naturally, are now acting like one yourself. Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Never being offended. A former minister of mine would give the teenage girl side hugs, which put his hand in a place it shouldnt have been. We werent leaders, but we can tell you re: Stowell and many others that they leave and say nothing or little to protect their own reputations and future work in ministry. 30 seconds, if it was really that long, is a very long time for a hug. The couple was hitched in 1974. . In the book, Turn the Ship Around David Marquet writes: Leadership should mean giving control rather than taking control and creating leaders rather than forging followers. Power is at the top but information is with the hands-on bottom levels of a hierarchy. Ephesians 4:2. What needs to be addressed is that this is not a matter of somehow eliminating the existence of random perverts, as if such a thing were possible. @ Davis and Natasha: I truly hope that WCC reexamines who they are. Hybels fell for him when he was on staff with Rob Bell at Mars Hill EMERGENT Church, in Grand Rapids. Much Prayer as God makes all things clear. Willow Creek has run many many seminars teaching other churches how to impliment the Williow Creek model. Have you ever watched the news when the police pick up some guy who is a pedophile and all the neighbors say But he was so nice. Ive no doubt that there was irregularities going on at WCC. I was prescribed ambien, and I was one of those affected in that way behaving strangely and not remembering it the next day. . No quid pro quo to substantiate. Yes, we left HBC ourselves. To fellowship with other believers? Old school stuff. No one, from the janitor to the CEO, can be deemed off limits to the moral and ethical demands of respect, decency and appropriate behavior. Hence, I like Brad Futurist guys work, though I do find it sometimes too intellectual for me! I believe Nancy Ortberg and I also believe the other victims who have come forward. All we can do is obey the Lord, do whatever it is were told by Him to do. Should Christians be carrying around tally sheets-How many did I lead to Christ this week? At what point did Nancy inform her husband? And then maybe they see it happening, confront the guy, he says understood and suddenly you and your husband are out of a job. And I admit to being raised that public displays of affection between adults was not the best as it might make some uncomfortable. Who though renowned for his wisdom, had a strong of Rich Kid with Famous Father syndrome. I would thank that their legal counsel would have ensured that documents (including emails) from all board members, staff, and other employees would need to be preserved, in case of legal/criminal issues arising. And us adults have to learn not to be so easily snookered by evil experts masquerading as wonderful people and pass red flags along to children. What if the Elders had sent Hybels home on a sabbatical while they allowed for a truly independent investigation 5 years ago? God is always present, even in the hard and dark times. He got GAWD on his side The faith survived the persecutions.It will survive Bill Hybels indiscretions. He didnt seem to follow Yahwehs rules much anyway. But long ago, I realized that these situations are not made up of clear white/black hats. free. Abuse works on the good-hearted the ones who are trying to give others the benefit of the doubt, questioning their own discernment, seeking to extend charity. 1 Peter 4:8 Which is why the Internet is SATANIC WITCHCRAAAAAFT and their on-lookers are the WITCHES! Most common reaction in the world. Tysvm Dee. Shame on all who participated in this. Redemption. Max, darn! (Keep in mind I was having a hard time mapping that organizational understanding of leadership to servant of the Body of Christ in those days), You dont remember Bill grooming you? Again, the new york . This is my church and I dont think there are any loliests but there are people who want a full accounting. And if it gets really bad the staunch hybels factions may end up being ousted. God is a title. He didnt want to stop and I have some doubts that he took it when all this stuff happened. Women get to decide if they want to be touched or not, and oh he did not mean anything by should never even have to be brought into play-in the workplace. A high five or handshake can do the same. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because your mind tells you this particular man YOU KNOW would never so you must be misjudging. Its uncomfortable but is it anything really? I mean, it makes for good gossip too. It alarmed me to learn that Nancy Ortberg was also the subject of Bill Hybels unwanted attention and actions. It means wearing Gods name like a banner (CHRIST-ian Leader) and then doing terribly ungodly things that represent Him poorly. I hope its okay to post. 1 comment about arms Tsk.) come out of the woodwork. Dont know, but I wonder. In response to that question: Was Hybels leading folks to Christ or to Hybels? @ okrapod: Anyone who says otherwise or who tries to slam someone for not telling immediately just doesnt know what theyre talking about. Its so clear how this happened on the womens part. Its The guy at church who wants a side hug. Nothing would happen there. When one person has an experience like this with a trusted friend and spiritual leader, they typically dont know how to make sense of it. Given the complexity and amount of ongoing business involved in a multi-million-dollar, multi-campus enterprise, I would thank that their legal counsel would have ensured that documents (including emails) from all board members, staff, and other employees would need to be preserved, in case of legal/criminal issues arising. And the devil is not after your church, WC. I wonder if her crisis of faith was after finding out about something shady Bill was doing? We have not seen courageous leadership. What I count is as follows: Oh, absolutely. And I never understood why Hybels did not step down when his wife (Lynne) had a HUGE crisis of faith. I think Bill Hybels is an intelligent man. And, are most people blowing this thing up bigger than it is. But it is also more than ethics here. WC is Hybels no matter how much they protest. #metoo. During that meeting, an Elder told a WCA Board member that Willow Creek had no document retention policy. This was the first time either Board had heard about this arrangement, but both of these women told us separately that Bill had told them about this special arrangement years prior. I dont think he deserved that. Jodi may want to keep her resume refreshed. Tyndale House Publishers is suspending publication of a forthcoming new book from Bill Hybels, and InterVarsity Press is suspending reprint of one of his books. Exit music: Where I work we are required to use the company secure email system if sending high or moderate risk information (e.g., social security numbers, credit card numbers, student records, health information). Ambien or the Devil it is always Something/one Elses Fault. Bill has been married to Lynn Hybels since 1974. So, Ive also read it in the Original Languages. He has two children with his wife, Lynn whom he married in 1974. Rather, I think it is their twisted view of both God and humanity. he is still a . Obviously very biblically ignorant site!! Without gossip and people looking out, anyone who has been hurt by church/leadership will simply be driven out, and the whole thing covered up. That seems inappropriate. But your iniquities have built barriers between you and your God, and your sins have made Him hide His face from you so that He does not listen. (Isaiah 59:1-2). over my many years associated with fundamenatlist through to mainline protestant groups I have experienced things situations, or told things that seemed just downright wrong. 2. People said the same sort of things about us, people sneered at us, shunned us, surely said Whats wrong with this picture just like you did. But I have not noticed any hugging at the hospital or at any doctors or dentists office. There is your real problem, right there. @ Julie: @ Davis and Natasha: He needs nothing, needs none of us, but He loves us and makes us a part of His plan. I wonder if you would say the same thing about a small church in rural Indiana or is it only the big churches that are the most important? Peter was upset. and this they do with great skill. Things are starting to get ugly. Lynne Hybels Bill (281 results). The scripture I quoted was word for word out of the bible. Excellent comment! Barb, I must say, you have this amazing gift of being able to cut through a persons (premeditated) bullpoo. Thanks Dee. Please understand that this is exactly the way it usually happens. And with Invocation of GAWD subbing for the Ludes and Roofies. What woman who may have had a relationship with Bill, but are now married, would want their name and reputation trashed? Ambien made me do it (Bill Hybels) And yes, I cuddled our dog as a little girl. I have been doing some background checking into this. What BH did is reprehensible. If you all think that personal shopping is sex abuse, you need to get real. Why is Willow Creek exempt? I guess Billy Graham never led anyone to Jesus then. Our job is to sow seeds. So many perps being exposed it looks like the Lord is behind the exposure. Membership Covenants i can not think of any good reason the pastor would want that! . there was nothing inappropriate about Bill trying to guide your whole self as an up and coming leader. For someone who set himself up as a leader of leaders, Hybels made a critical leadership mistake here. Betty Schmidt gave 5 specific ways the current Willow Creek elders have misquoted and misrepresented her. I grew up around some. Wow. How can leadership send an OPINION to the entire congregation? Was Hybels intimating that The Ambien made me do it? Read this account posted by Vonda Dyer. You be the Mugu; I be the Master! I developed this over the last 10 years in writing curriculum on addressing systemic abuse. The door was open. I agree. Bill Hybels got married to Lynne in 1974. I hope you are right about this. Thats how they get by with it. I really liked your comment. Swimming in a mile-wide creek, one-inch deep. Love That Lasts book. They also have two children together, whose name we don't know. This was mishandled. Even then, she was ashamed about what happened to her, as if it was her fault. I was extremely uncomfortable with Hybels repeatedly reminding the church he was the one leading the charge to empower women. Its been drilled into our heads and many are convinced if the perp or deceiver is confronted (even years later) they will repent. I mean, it makes for good gossip too. RE got to talking about guys grabbing a boobie feel with side hugs; she thinks it is pretty ubiquitous in the male population. I asked my mom once why she endured physical abuse so long from my father, and she gave me similar answers. Dont ever close the door to the tutoring office if a student is in there *especially female students. Im not a lawyer, but do a lot of research and writing on spiritual abuse and toxic organizational systems. Lets show the world that there is a place to growth our sin. As it has been stated in widening circles of social media, under these circumstances (such as: improper investigation, witness discounting/tampering/intemadation, and most important lack of following scriptural guidelines) the Willow Creek 501(c)3 church organization by many credible voices has been deemed/proscribed as no longer a(n) safe or scriptural place to attend or be a part of. etc. Did her husband ask her not to say anything for FEAR of losing his job? Yes, there is a hug/cuddle culture that has science backing it. Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priests servant, cutting off his right ear. Hybels has been open regarding his professional career but does not share any information about his personal life. Thanks, Julie! He was once featured in a Christian magazine. Association of Related Churches There is a legal concept called spoliation of evidence, which refers to the destruction or withholding of evidence whether done intentionally or accidentally. Sounds more like damage control. This slavish devotion to a leader or organization is scary and given the size and influence of this church, what are they capable of? I read it that Jesus was doing the moderating. However, I am not going to let every Tom, Dick and Joe Salitas to copy and paste the letter into this comment section. @ Dee Parsons: There were people in the main office just outside the tutoring office where I worked with students. They said they could look him in the eye and discern if he was telling the truth. I double dog dare every Creeker to demand to see a detailed budget. If there is one thing I find the most comprehensively evil is manipulative deception. Alway such an emphasis on putting Willow Creek 1st, how about putting Jesus 1st? When we finally did start talking, everyone called us liars. Cant people be sincere and caring without all that? Once, while Mr. Hybels's wife, Lynne, and. @ Lea: Yep and the email deal reminds me of someone else. I hope your eyes are one day opened. Since Hybels resigned, a few of the accusers have stated that they did not want it to come to that. High five, yes, hug no. And ironically, asking that question is why. In your view, discussing Hybels behavior is worse than his behavior. Its not. I know. I am absolutely sickened by this situation. Ive been wondering if church leaders with abusive pastors have become convinced (or have convinced themselves) that, 1) Sexual misconduct is somehow rampant among charismatic pastors Willow Creek does not need Bill Hybels. For most organizations, hard questions and analytical thinking is NOT desirable, as it will almost always challenges the official orthodoxy and might even unmask hidden agendas. STOP TAKING THE STUFF! What is the Body of Christ? Posted travelpro skywalk vs maxlite. None of the first seven ecumenical councils dealt with this topic, which pretty much means that the line of heresy was never defined. What they are doing is exactly what someone who has been there would expect them to do. Honestly, there is a lot of gossip here and on other social media about all this. Very sad indeed. Ummmmm Brad. How many do you want, Brad? . Please read what I, a former elder, wrote. She claims Bill Hybels brought up the incident in Hawaii about the ambien. I know. I treated my childhood dog like a doll. Thank you for sharing your analysis of this! In lego marvel rescue minifigure I recognized something was wrong with that, but for various reasons, didnt quite make the connection. Jodi may get extra points for a time for her clever rant but if this thing goes south she will be the first to go. 8 comments. 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