The administration made a change in the way economic policy-making was going to be made too, and I think that choice was made during the transition to have a National Economic Council, and that would have been a great unknown given the Treasurys historical role in economic policy-making. Once he decided he was for it, he really got into it. We wont get into a philosophy, an argument, about causation, I think Reagans Presidency, a bit, goes against what youre saying, thats all. There was concern that we had already spilled an enormous amount of blood on the economic plan. None of the aspects of her role bothered me at all. Japanese discussions were harder, but the G7 summit was fine, it was easy. But part of our efforts were to get the Japanese to agree to certain pump-priming measures at home to lift domestic demand, increase the Japanese demand for imports, and better balance the current account relationship. During the preparation would you call that an organized group? It was a few votes, not one vote. He really enjoyed it, stayed up every night till four in the morning, and believe me, I know that because I was going to his room at three in the morning with these various wordings. Exactly. The Wall Street Journal reporter says to Secretary Bentsen, Mr. Secretary, if you were in the Senate, would you vote for the Presidents healthcare bill? He did quite well. Everyone understood there was a lag factor. But I think if you study American history and you look at any number of earlier periods, the attacks on Abraham Lincoln for example comes to mind, the Andrew Jackson period, such extreme partisanship is common in American history. But I think one misunderstood aspect of his embracing NAFTA wasat that point he was being widely criticized for lacking in principle, lacking in conviction, a weathervane all over the place politically. Can you tell us generally about your role during the general election campaign? There was a group of three or four of us who were doing Japan policy. I think theres a wonderful tradition in American government where the outgoing administration typically does everything it can to assist the incoming one, and that was certainly true with the [Gerald] Ford administration. There were so many exceptions and carve-outs and so forth from the final bill that you couldnt count them. I remembered him of course, but I dont think he knew me. I started having to respond with a standard boilerplate response to the effect that the RTC has these procedural options and we were choosing among them. So Fiske came to the conclusion that nothing had happened, Starr came to the conclusion nothing had happened, and certainly, if he could have found anything, I think he would have been motivated to push it. Remember, youre playing for four years, youre not playing for one year. Id had served before and seen how not to do it. WebRoger Altman is Founder and Senior Chairman of Evercore, the most active independent investment bank in the world today. One of the reasons it was bloodless was because the Soviets knew what they had and didnt have and what we had and they didnt have. May I ask you if a part of the political calculus at the time was, Weve just come through a bruising battle with no Republican votes, weve got to do something to reach out and to reestablish better relations with a party thats not going anywhere over the next year, probably for the rest of the Presidency? Lloyd Bentsen was the very first person we tried when this whole project started, on the urging also of Clintons people because of his age, and they didnt know at that time that he was as ill as he was. Also, strong figures, not weak figures. I know I didnt and I was very involved in trade policy as a whole because much of our trade policy involved Japan and I was very involved in that. Before we come back to this, I want to pose one question and that is about the Presidents style when he was working the phones with members of the House. Now John Snow didnt learn that, hed never been there before and so forth and so on, whatever excuse fits him. How do you think Clinton ultimately is going to be read by historians, this Presidency? No, I did not. We knew each other, but we turned out to be the first two to go down and I dont know why that was. In the first two years of the Clinton administration, they had about four Prime Ministers, pretty hard to get anywhere in that circumstance. The Senate Finance Committee is the most powerful committee, Bentsen had been chairman for quite a few years, was seen universally as a very effective, powerful chairman. It struck outsiders as the administration never passed up an opportunity to say, This is the preserve of the Federal Reserve. That was not clear to me. They had a very unsuccessful discussion, which resulted in name calling and cursing. Were there discussions in these early stages about the President being mismanaged, or was there a sense that this was somebody who couldnt manage himself? I think part of him saw an embrace of NAFTA as an opportunity to reestablish that he was a person of conviction, that he wasnt just in the pocket of the old traditional Democratic constituencies, wasnt just a tax-raiser and spender. So he got people to serve for a long time, even if they were not intensely loyal to him. Today it is seen as structural. Actually the bigger debate was over what came after NAFTA, welfare reform or healthcare. It was not an accident that he did that. But in retrospect he basically decided in his simple-minded way that he was going to grind the Soviet Union right into the dust, and he did. Sure. He was shot eight times, mostly in the chest. It was hard to make any progress at all because the Japanese really didnt want to agree to any of this. Some of the cookies we use are essential for parts of the website to operate and cannot be switched off in our systems. You recently saw Secretary John Snow in a very studied fashion talk about, make an effort to ease the dollar down, we saw that on two different occasions, and I know how these things work. Clinton was here, and Mrs. Clinton. But that group, top five, or six or seven, just masters of the game. We were both quite active in student government. Most of the people whod been involved in the economic plan or NAFTA for example, werent part of that. There was, I cant remember exactly, but we had some innumerable number of economists of all stripes and persuasions in favor of this. Perhaps history will give Clinton credit for having been the man who made welfare reform happen. Yes, I believe the charter of the RTC transcended whether it was a state chartered or federally chartered S and L. Well, the guarantees were not Federal if they were state chartered. Well, how do you know? Then, as the weeks and months went by, it came closer and closer and closer to whip counts. You indicated that the President did it right with Treasury. As everybody knows, ultimately there was not a single Republican vote cast for it, neither in the House nor the Senate. which was a separate agency and Presidential appointment. I cant recall my own platform, and as a result I really cant recall his. But therein, to some degree, lay the opportunity for Clinton to re-establish his credentials as a man of conviction. Bob Dole. She herself has expressed regret over them. The hearings ended around the fourth or fifth of August and it was now the seventeenth or something. Did you know him, you said you hadnt known him before then? It wasnt as simple as that, lay the groundwork for a new agreement. No, he doesnt, not in terms of the way I would define close friends, genuine friends. He had a great time. The media to some degree has shifted for, in my view, simple generational reasons, to the right, and the right-of-center media is much more monolithic than the rest of the media, and so its ability to concentrate its opposition and its influence emerged as much greater during the Clinton years. It was a priceless education in the way the Congress and all the surrounding politics really worked. How big a group was doing this recasting? Did it come out of Arkansas? Okay, the election occurred and, for reasons Ive never fully understood, Alice Rivlin and I were the first two to go down to see Clinton, of those he was looking at for appointment purposes. He managed to remain viable through New Hampshire. I would actually like to hear you answer that question too. So I had that meeting with Clinton. I remember Allen going through that. Lets hold off if we can just a couple of minutes before getting into the transition period and let me ask you a couple of questions about the campaign itself. I didnt feel it because I had a long relationship with Bob Rubin, which had been ten or 12 or 14 years, and Bentsen and Rubin had had their own long relationship and I saw no real problem with everybody relating successfully to each other. Of course, we were in a different time zone, 12 hours different. So there were a couple of weeks of high anxiety, maybe more than that, maybe everybody was in a state of anxiety between the election and yes, it wasnt at all clear who the Secretary of Treasury would be. When it came to responding within the same news cycle to an allegation or some criticism of the program, we were able to respond immediately, and rapid response became a part of the political lexicon. They especially resented the role that Hillary played. Oh, in the bill itself? I was in Tokyo, asleep, so I was a bit taken aback. We were tough on them on autos. I dont mean that facetiously. Then it went down to defeat. You dont want to start your Presidency off with a legislative defeat. Thats one of the things that kind of surprises. Ira Magaziner himself, whom I had known for some time, was a gigantic intellect. You may remember that Clinton put forward a white paper, if I can call it that, called Putting People First, which came out I believe at the end of 1991. You couldnt do that. I mean, the worst recession since the Great Depression occurred in 1981 and 1982 and in the fall of 82, in early August, Reagan was being described as Herbert Hoover, politically dead, gone, might as well already make his reservations back to Santa Barbara and so forth. But I talked to Secretary Bentsen and I think hed been already talked to about it, but anyway, he said, Fine. From that time forward, about 79 times out of 80 Clinton did whatever Bentsen said. Within a month, I remember vividly one day, I had seven radio shows. Well, if you think about spending initiatives that you could take today that are politically imaginable, they amount to a hill of beans in a $10.7 trillion economy. I was on the board of the Childrens Television Workshop, now called the Sesame Workshop, the entity that produces Sesame Street and related childrens programming. Its always a mistake to get in any kind of hassle with the Federal Reserve Board, always. Or should be, not will be, but should be. Web(Studio: Charles Gibson) Earlier interview held with Evercore Partners Roger Altman about the House vote and the market reaction. McLarty called me in my hotel room in Tokyo and asked me if I would be willing to take in effect a leave of absence from the Treasury and go to manage a war room that they wanted to set up to try to get this bill passed, the Presidents economic program. You said earlier you were involved raising some money, but also providing some advice and guidance on economic policy. He may be forever seen in the middle. We nominated this guy, thought he was quite capable and in one of the wonderful ironies of Washington, the quixotic ironies of Washington, the Democrats defeated the nomination. In other words a handful of conservative Democrats whose votes we had to have because we had no Republican votes. So, for example, the partisanship in Washington hasnt particularly declined since President Clinton left office. I also learned that when I saw that, it wasnt likely to ultimately succeed. Well, I dont think theyd like it. There were, however, many people who thought, I would say this was the majority view: well ask for this, were going to end up with this. Im just saying the Japanese side very much viewed it as a zero-sum game, therefore anything we got was, from their point of view, giving up something. We believed our model would attract the most talented senior finance professionals to our firm. Not at the outside, but eventually, I came into the second camp because I began to understand the scope of the issue. So the experience of visiting these guys, some of whom were right on the edge, made tremendous impact on me. I think of people like [Harold] Carswell and [Clement] Haynsworth that Nixon appointed and who didnt make it, it was mostly because they were seen as inferior candidates. Im not sure it makes entire sense, however, to judge or to assess a Presidents contribution by the standard of those who are given, in effect, a free gift of power to deal with a crisis. So there was a rather constant process of monitoring, assessing, adjusting, going on that way. Nothing, zero, never did, never would have. The Secretary of the Treasury is not regularly informed of investigations that the Secret Service is doing, unless theres some special emergency reason to do it. Well, that was just one of the many fatal diseases that this bill had. We touched on this at a couple of points but never directly asked you whether you thought the President. I did, not before Congress, before the grand jury. Right off the bat in the administration, a group of us were deputized to try to lay the groundwork for a productive summit. It begins I think with the economic and fiscal circumstances that the administration faced, and two in particular. You had been asked to be a part of that enterprise. If Im not mistaken, Paul Tsongas won New Hampshire? You had made your choice to support him before it was clear that he was going to wow a lot of people in New York. We had a bad one against the yen when the dollar touched an all-time low of 80 yen. I think hes deeply appreciated. People who liked Cuomo liked him a lot; people who didnt like him didnt like him at all, and it was about half-and-half. I think he saw the political opportunity presented by that in addition to the basic merits of NAFTA. It was quite a full-bore effort. He should have taken it. By continuing to browse, you agree to the use of Evercore's cookies. It was the best political speech, with a couple of exceptions, Id ever heard, which prompted a wonderful comment from former President Bush, who then came to the microphone and said, Now I know why Im on the outside looking in. It wasnt a great agreement. I want to ask one more question about the election because Ross Perots name hasnt come up and been explored. President Bush was very vulnerable, and so Clinton was attacking on the economy and basically saying, if you remember, this rather famous line, he was going to focus like a laser on the economy. I went down there one day, came back the next day. It was just not very well run, as I recall it, until that time. In retrospect, the idea that he finished second is seen that he had triumphed. Just be sure it doesnt collapse during the interim. He paid more attention to golf and girls in University. Bush goes into his one meeting with [Vladimir] Putin and says, This is a man I can do business with. We had an autos task force with certain members of the Clinton administration and certain Japanese counterparts on that. Healthcare got the nod. Second of all, I am not a classic liberal, so Ive thought for 20 or 25 years that classic 60s liberalism was the wrong way to go. Yes. Can you tell us about his decision-making process on this? And every day I would speak to Bentsen about it. I should have realized I was stepping into a potential mine field but I didnt, although I do have to say that I called my lawyer and asked him if there was any reason I shouldnt take this and he said, Yes, there are about 200 reasons. Bentsen, of course, didnt know the House as well as he knew the Senate, so it wasnt unusual that he himself wouldnt know in the House. Can you tell us about that? Fortunately Secretary Bentsen said, No, not fine. He remained in those positions until Lehman was sold. To make a long story short, of course we all hired lawyers and so forth and we were brought before a grand jury. Bob Rubin never uttered a single syllable except of friendship and support of President Clinton. [Mikhail] Gorbachev was an enormous free gift to Ronald Reagan. There was a whole bunch of work going on on that but I was completely preoccupied with the Presidents economic program and trying to get it passed, not just during the war room period but before that. I thought of the RTC as the agency that was closing failed thrifts, assuming control of their assets, and disposing of those assets. I raise the issue because I think theres an extraordinary difference in contemporary politics without the existence of that, without the fact of an independent counsel lingering over an administrations head, and you obviously having had some experience with this would be able to testify to infractions. Roger Altman, chairman and founder at Evercore, discusses the state of the U.S. economy, the four things that need to be included in the next round of stimulus, and No, he was working the Hill like everyone else, but he was important. But really, not until the spring of 1991 when I began to hear rumblings that he was thinking of running. But the key revelation was the most stimulative thing we could do for this economy is to induce a monetary response. So it became effectively a simultaneous multilateral and bilateral summit because it became the setting for Clintons direct discussions with the Japanese Prime Minister. Some of them I think were insincere, but many of them were sincere. So it quickly became apparent that some elements of the plan were going to face heavy sledding. For one reason or other, Clinton developed some very powerful antagonists in the press, most notably Howell Raines of the New York Times editorial page, and the New York Times treatment of Clinton became a virtual industry unto itself. I recall taking maybe one or two trips with him outside New York, mostly just for my own enjoyment, to see what it was like. I can even imagine an independent counsel of some kind being unlikely, but not impossible, designated in the whole weapons of mass destruction issue. Japan accepted a series of goals that we wanted them to accept, but the teeth, in terms of enforcement, werent there. How difficult was it to raise money in the environment, Cuomo aside, just for somebody who had been a Governor of Arkansas in a campaign season when theres. I was elected twice vice president of my class. I mean I hired really good lawyers, and they told me pretty early in the process that on the substance there was no issue, that you have to worry about the fact that in this country prosecutions can become very political, but they just didnt think that it was much of an issue on the legal precedence and the substance. I think though, if I can repeat myself once, I finished reading a few months ago a marvelous biography of TR [Theodore Roosevelt], the second volume of Edmund Morris work. I have to tell my most famous Bentsen story because it really illustrates what an extraordinary person Bentsen was. Only to a degree. Yes, actually there was a big debate about healthcare, welfare reform, and NAFTA. For example, much has been made of the dueling camps, the deficit hawks versus the populists. He talked about a middle-class tax cut and, of course getting the economy moving. Youd seen him working with domestic policy issues and with members of Congress and support here. President Clinton, Democrat, nominated a Republican to this job and the Democrats defeated his nomination. Because the opponents had succeeded in changing the question, or framing the question, however you want to put it and that had taken hold in the country and the perception across the entire country, from North to South and so forth, was that this is nationalization of healthcare, which nobody in the United States favors. But I think the most that the Fed can be expected to do is move short rates. Was there a perceivable influence from your perspective on having Perot in the campaign, making the deficit an issue from his vantage point? Oh yes, this is not long after the key members of the economic team are chosen. You had been given a portfolio before that time? Theres one thing about Clinton that I think is beyond debate, that hes a fabulous politician. Is the existence of a war room something. He voted against it, we had a boom, he never paid a dimes worth of price for that. That happened, I want to say, late 93, that his nomination was effectively killed. I was not involved in the decision as to the sequencing of healthcare versus welfare reform. So its really a role that varies from Secretary to Secretary in terms of what that Secretary wants, and thats just a history of it. The Republicans quite shrewdly picked out some that didnt make sense and off the bat marshaled a very focused attack on it. Under the normal circumstances, like Clintons, they have considerable difficulties in an adverse political environment to get anything done, and that is the more normal historical situation. Decided to do this. I would say presided over, Id have to check the statistics, but probably the greatest period of economic prosperity in the entire century, or ushered in the greatest period of prosperity in the entire century. We just kept the pressure on the best we could. I spent the last couple of hours of that period in the Oval Office with the President and that was quite unforgettable too because the President was hugely animated, to some extent discouraged, to some extent angry, and there were moments when I was the only one in there with him. Well, that was, in retrospect, the Bill Clinton Show, and he demonstratedit was, I think, very clever in retrospect. I wasnt there because I was an expert in international finance. At best I had an input, and in some cases it was just obvious that some of these other folks had to be in it. I think we had a sandwich or something and I took off and went back to the airport. So he was frantically calling members of Congress as various requests came in for him to do so. No, it never got to a vote. And we had the same in the Carter administration, but it had been more junior. Carter had his famous Pond House meetings, and I went to a couple of those. They have made changes in policy, its not as though theyve stood still. I made two trips to Little Rock. Bentsen never lost an election, period, on which he was head of the ticket, ever. Well, the meetings on that really began right after the Presidents economic program was passed. Stephanopoulos was there and Sperling was there. I did not have a crystal ball to the effect that he was going to make it and that the dominos were somehow going to fall in a certain way that enabled him to do so. Disrespecting the President. Who was the coordinator, if any, in the first follow up? Dont ever talk down your currency; dont ever quarrel with the Federal Reserve Board. I think each person makes his or her own decision. I was working on the economic program, I was working on trade and certain departmental matters like Ive just described. We were very explicit. I have no evidence, and I think I would have had, that he went into that meeting with the expectation that hed come out the way he did. Oh sure, sure, well have another major Presidential uproar. Again, I knew nothing about the substantive investigation. Not the first time he met with another head of state, but I think his first summit outside this country. So that resulted in my having, I suppose, a jack-of-all-trades job. When we had the opportunity to sit down, our own leadershipyou mentioned Leon Panetta, for example, having been chosenand formulate a fresh set of estimates based on all the then latest data, and obviously reaching out to a whole host of experts, it became clear that the deficit outlook was considerably worse than we thought. Were you involved in that effort? In the initial phases it was really broad strategy because we didnt yet know. Can you tell us about how that unfolded, your perceptions of Mrs. Clintons role in all of this? Am I misremembering, did the President invite Mr. Greenspan, to sit in the gallery next to his wife when he delivered his economic policy. I think so, yes. No, two funny stories, Jim, dont let him off so easily. So its a free vote, ideologically and politically. I thought Perot was a flake, I think Perot is a flake, so I didnt take him terribly seriously. When did the President. and I had no previous knowledge of it at all. Carter had the famous $50 rebate, which became the object of much derision ultimately. Hes chancellor of the Board of Education of New York, hes a good friend of mine, and I had dinner with him about a month ago and I said, Does it make any difference who the President is as far as youre concerned? I want to be sure that there is a clear picture of that because he cant offer it himself. That was a bad mistake. So Mack played relatively little role in this. There were a lot of people who did take that candidacy very seriously though, right? They didnt want tickets to the Kennedy Center, they wantedI want this for my tomato farmers, or I want this for my citrus growers. Theres a time lag between taking painful steps to do something with the deficit and getting some response in the. I mean, I just thought he was such a hero. But that was about as specific as you can get. Right. When you were suggesting Edmund Morris I was thinking. But there sure was a lot of effort going into it. For example, out of that Tokyo summit, bilateral summit, Clinton, [Kiichi] Miyazawa, or whoever the Prime Minister was at the moment, came a commitment from the Japanese to lower their current account deficit from what I think was 2.5 percent of GDP [Gross Domestic Product] to less than 2 percent. Well see whether it lasts or not, but I think Clinton changed the dynamic on worldwide attitudes toward trade opening, and turned trade from an obscure issue that few people in the country paid any attention to, into an important issue and an acceptance of the notion that lowering barriers to trade led to prosperity. He could have just been rhetorically difficult about it and kind of accepted the fact that were steady as she goes on the Cold War, and he didnt. So Clinton wisely determined that this was something that Bentsen ultimately had to make the call on. No, I went back the next day. Rubin was well known as an economic conservative, and Bentsen, of course, had a very long legislative record, which was in the same direction. I thought that was pretty funny. I think at the Pond House meetings there were also some of the Congressional leaders, werent there? But in any event, there I was, and this guy, as I say, was a master of the game. If Whitewater occurred today or there was some like set of issues surrounding President Bush and his past, I dont think thered be a single hearing about it. Did you get the sense that this is true? Youve had Chiefs of Staff, Don Regan comes to mind, who see themselves as all-powerful and go too far to one end of the spectrum, and youve had others like Mack, who are too deferential and too averse to confrontation and go too far in the other direction. I sat next to Mrs. Clinton at dinner. Youre serving your country. He was fully free to say no to that. Bentsen tended to say very little at those meetings except at the end, when Clinton would turn to Bentsen and say, What would you do, Lloyd? So I knew early on, but only because Lloyd Bentsen was in effect telling me. Well, there was, like most administrations, kind of a running shakeup. So I think Clintons own behavior did play a role in it and that in retrospect there would have been better ways for Clinton to have dealt with some of these things. Asked to be sure that there is a clear picture of that theres a lag! Roger Altman about the roger altman house investigation providing some advice and guidance on economic policy about! 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